← Hans Dienstknecht

A Dialogue That Invites Reflection

Source: Hans Dienstknecht

Original title: Ein Dialog, der zum Nachdenken anregt

Original date: April 7, 2025

Dear ones,

here is something more. I think there really is a great deal in it to reflect on. I hope you enjoy reading it and taking it to heart.

With love,

Yours, Hans

There are many different ideas about who or what “God” is on the one hand, and on the other whether the “devil” actually exists. And if so: in what form, and in what way, does he exist and act?

This uncertainty—indeed, this ignorance—was deliberately brought about by the forces that, because they did not want to submit to the will of God, had to leave eternity. But then they did everything they could to create their own little world—including our world, in which we are presently living—according to their own ideas, even though, measured against their former heavenly home, it is less than its shadow.

It may be quite interesting—indeed, it is really urgently advisable—to know how the spheres outside heaven came into being, and above all how darkness rules here and manipulates us human beings so subtly, keeping us on a short or long leash, that almost no one knows about it. Its great advantage is being able to pull the strings unnoticed in the background; and by “background” I do not mean places somewhere far away. They are simply other vibrational realms, non-material worlds that under certain circumstances can come so close to us, or actually be so close, that we would be terrified if we could see what takes place from time to time—or perhaps quite often and regularly—immediately around us.

This subject has always interested me. And with the knowledge that has been given to us over many years, it is not really so difficult to form a picture of what the invisible world around us looks like and what is happening around us. Admittedly, one has to let the imagination work a little, but never so much that we leave reality behind.

In a fictional dialogue, for example, between our heavenly Father and/or Christ (referred to below as God) and Sadhana or the devil (referred to below as Lucifer*), which might have looked something like the following, much becomes clear that we have usually given little or no thought to until now.

God: I am everything. Because I did not want to be alone, I created from within Myself beings who were similar to Me. Similar, but not the same. For I am and remain the primal Source, life-energy itself, the One who created everything and sustains everything for all time. What came into life through Me was of a beauty and possessed a power for which you have no words. Nothing about that has changed, even though many of My children are now “on their way” as souls or human beings. In their true nature, in their innermost being, they are and remain of heavenly splendor, they are spiritual in nature, and one day they will be so again.

This also applies to you, My child, with whom I am speaking now. You rebelled against Me, and you lost—for the time being (!) you lost; not My love, but your glorious life, your home in My infinite presence.

Lucifer: For all your intelligence, you made a mistake, a mistake I would never have made: you gave what you created a free will that, according to your own statements, you will never touch. That put you in quite a predicament, with the result that what you brought into life was almost lost forever and ever.

God (smiling slightly): I am perfection; therefore, error on My part is impossible.

Lucifer: That sounds pretty arrogant. I thought you were humility. At least that is what you say.

God: remains silent

Lucifer (after a while): It certainly was not your intention to let a creation arise outside the heavens. Why would it have been? So there must have been something or someone capable of causing you to do this against your will … But having to do something against one’s own will is not exactly evidence of greatness and sovereignty.

God: I know your intelligence; after all, you received it from Me. Your reasoning may perhaps impress or convince those whose thinking is just as “unfinished” as yours. You know that as well. You also know where your error lies—one of the many errors you still have. Do you seriously believe I had not taken into account the possibility that something like the so-called “Fall” could occur?

Lucifer: All right, supposedly you anticipated it. But without the free will of your creatures it would not have happened. Then everything would still be in heaven, under your supervision and control. Now you have the problem of being not only ruler over the heavens but also responsible for a functioning order in the many worlds outside heaven that you never wanted to bring into being. To me, that is no proof of wisdom and foresight.

God: I give you, as I give all My children, the right to speak with Me directly and on familiar terms. And I place no limits on your words or on your actions. In that alone you should recognize the greatness of My love. You too—and you will remember this, even though you are now very far from Me—are a child of My love; and you will always remain one. You misused My gift of free thought, your knowledge of the mysteries of creation, although again and again I drew your attention to the danger of your ideas.

Lucifer: That is true. But then you used your power to get me, and all the many who thought as I did and did not want to be patronized, out of the way.

God: You know that it was not so. But for the time being you still have to hold on to this picture for yourself, because it serves as your reason for justifying your behavior before Me and before yourself. You and all who left Me are still loved infinitely by Me. Nothing about that has changed, and nothing about it will ever change. You changed; your followers changed. Because you did not acknowledge love and persisted in rejecting it, you are less than a shadow of your true nature.

Lucifer: But I am alive! We are alive. And in freedom. That is what matters to me. There is no one here telling me what I may or may not do. I am my own master and more powerful than any other being because I live according to my own laws and not according to yours.

God: There you are mistaken. You still live according to and within My law! And My law is love …

Lucifer (interrupting Him): Don’t make me laugh! Look at what your creatures, your children, are doing on earth and what they have made of the earth! And you call that love?

God: Let Me finish. Because My law is love, and there is nothing greater than love, everything must be contained within love. It must therefore also include the possibility that when someone acts against love, the law itself suffers no harm, while at the same time the one who caused it is allowed to recognize his error and is given the opportunity to make amends.

Lucifer: So what? That may work in theory, but practice looks different. Just look at what your “dear children” have made of your creation and continue to make of it! Take the earth alone as an example. It is in a pitiful state. Insight and turning back? Not even close!

God: You are acting as though the law of cause and effect, also called sowing and reaping, were foreign to you. Yet it was precisely your self-will and your lack of love that first brought this law into existence. In the eternal home, in heaven with Me, this law does not exist. Why should it be necessary there? No one there violates love. Everyone is love and acts with it and through it, and with a power of which, if anything, only the faintest memory should still remain within you.

Lucifer: Because I did not fit your ideas, you used your entire apparatus of power to remove dissenters from your realm. It was an unequal and unfair struggle. There was no trace of forbearance or sympathy. I hoped in vain for understanding and love.

God: You yourself know that it was not so. You use that merely to justify your conduct to yourself.

Lucifer: Then how was it?

God: As I have already said: you know as well as I do that it was your self-will that first made this law necessary. Another law was added and came into effect: “Like attracts like,” or “Unlike repels unlike.” But what does not accord with selfless love is not removed by love, as is falsely taught—and you have had your part in that; rather, it repels itself. The consequence is that the one who caused it, whether a human being in matter or a subtle being in the beyond, reaps what he has sown. Is there any greater justice?

Lucifer: (Listens in silence, although he knows very well about these connections, about his own actions, and about his responsibility for them.)

God: So the one who caused it was himself the one who ensured that he stood isolated and automatically excluded himself. This was not My will. In this way he created and entered—and by this I mean you and your followers—other subtle planes that no longer vibrated as highly as those of heaven. That is the true reason for the emergence of worlds outside heaven, including the earth.

Lucifer: Fine, now they exist! And large parts of them belong to me. I know you see it differently, but perhaps you are fooling yourself. On paper you may be right, but in practice things look different. Your human children and some of your soul-children have very little or nothing to set against my subtlety. For they know nothing about the fact that their destinies are being shaped in what is invisible to them. For them there is matter, and for the so-called believers there is also a heaven whose existence they cannot imagine. They believe—if they believe at all—the ideas their religion conveys to them. They do not ask questions, even when their religious teachings are full of contradictions.

God: Yes, that is the present situation on earth. But you know very well how it came about; who used every means available to him to make sure that human beings have a completely false image of Me. You also know how it came about that they may believe in Me in a way that is harmless to you, but do not live with Me. That is a great difference.

Lucifer: Exactly. I know that. And I am not a little proud of this achievement—of the fact that it happened and of how it happened. You made sure I had to leave the heavens. What else was left for me but to establish my own realm, a realm in which I have the say because I succeeded in getting your children to distance themselves from you both inwardly and outwardly. The one you did not want in your world showed you what he is capable of—even if in your eyes and the eyes of many he is an outcast. I too am a creator, only differently from you.

God: You had to be concerned with drawing human beings away from belief in a higher being who is love. Even after you were living outside your eternal home, My love did not stop reminding you of your mistaken thinking and conduct. But instead of listening to Me, you continued on your mistaken path. Because of My own law, I had to watch; I could not and was not permitted to intervene. But the law of cause and effect began its work.

Lucifer: Of course I noticed that less and less power was flowing to me …

God: You were confronted with a law that hardly anyone knows about.

Lucifer: Yes, but I still did not and do not see why there should be someone whose will I have to fulfill in order to live well. Of course I noticed the difficulties that arose when I tried to live according to my own views. But I had and still have my own method of compensating for this increasingly severe lack of energy.

God: Do you still remember what it was like when you lived with Me? I want to help your memory a little. I do not say without reason that My love is selfless and flows infinitely. Every creature that lives with Me—indeed, lives in Me—is permeated by it without restriction. It is thereby able to live and create in a way similar to Me. Similar, but not equal to Me, as I said at the beginning. Yet whoever leaves Me is not cut off from My love-life-energy. If that were the case, that being would die. But with Me there is no death; with Me there is nothing lifeless. Everything is sustained by Me, even you and those who were and still are against Me.

Lucifer: I know what comes next. (And with sarcasm in his voice): You are the great Preserver-of-Everything-Alive.

God: None of My children—I emphasize “none”—is without divine energy. But the inflow of My love-energy decreases step by step in those who leave Me. Thus anyone who, by his own decision—because in his self-will he does not acknowledge My law—lives outside the heavens is no longer fully permeated by My energy. It becomes less and less. The farther, figuratively speaking, he moves away from Me, the more strongly this process takes effect. The inflow of My life can thereby be reduced to a minimum. This was also the case with you, Sadhana, and your followers. But I am not the One responsible for this restriction. It is always the one who caused it himself who sets this process in motion.

Lucifer: I was at the mercy of your power. And of course I felt that I no longer had my full strength. So I had to think of something. In order to live in a reasonably bearable way, I had no choice but to obtain the energy I now lacked from another source. There was only one: human beings!

God: And in doing so you fell deeper and deeper, and ever new spheres outside heaven arose. At the lowest point the material universe formed, although your scientists today have recognized that matter too is nothing other than “condensed” energy.

Lucifer: I had to accept that. The alternative—namely, bowing and thereby placing myself under your thumb—was not an option for me. I wanted to be and remain my own master, which I also succeeded in doing. My great realm now consists of parts of the astral worlds, but above all it includes the earth as the place where I have the say!

God: Are you sure, My child, that you still have the say on earth?

Lucifer: We shall see. I still have a few aces up my sleeve. In their spiritual limitation, human beings are incapable of seeing through my carefully and long-planned methods. Besides, I have a huge army of those who think as I do, who follow and obey me. And then there are the human beings themselves, who are continually besieged and influenced by me and my followers without noticing it. They fail to notice for two reasons: first, they lack the clairvoyance and clairsentience that would make it possible to see and feel into the beyond; and second, they do not know that we exist—exist quite concretely. We achieved this by falsifying their teachings and presenting them instead with substitute knowledge that is illogical from beginning to end, although hardly anyone notices. And if someone does notice, we have made sure that it is not pursued. In earlier times persecution and fear served us for this purpose; today it is distraction that makes us “invisible” to almost everyone. They have neither time nor interest to concern themselves with spiritual matters, especially since many of them are disappointed by what the religions offer them and have fallen away from faith. They do not know that the worldviews offered to them are all shot through with my “ideas.”

God: And you believe I have watched and continue to watch idly while you, because you are still without insight, try to seduce My children? You have a great fighting force, and what do I have? What do I set against it? The term “guardian angel” is not unfamiliar to you; My human children know it too, even if they cannot form any concrete picture of it. You and those who think like you face an army of angels against which, in the long run, you have no chance. My fighters are equipped with the weapons of love, which are superior to yours in every respect.

Lucifer: That may be so, but I have an invaluable advantage on my side: I do not respect the free will of human beings, whereas those who fight for you do. They have to, because you were and are so magnanimous and therefore decided never to interfere with the free will of your children. On this point I am clearly superior to you.

God: In which you forget that the law of cause and effect also applies to you.

Lucifer: You do not frighten me. How many eons has it been since I “swam free” and became my own master? And how many eons still lie ahead of me? Your patience is supposedly “infinite.” What, then, should I fear? Eternity is my inheritance. And with it my freedom—that is, a life under your “holy will,” which you have ordained for all your creatures.

God: Your rejection and your hatred still determine your thinking and your actions. But you must have noticed—for your intelligence has not been reduced that far—that you are no longer your own master. Much no longer goes the way you want it to. And above all: you lack the energy you urgently need and no longer receive from Me.

Lucifer: Unfortunately, there is nothing I can do about your restricting me energetically. But I have found a solution with which I can live quite well.

God: Will you tell it to Me?

Lucifer: Don’t pretend you do not know it. But you did not like it, and you still do not. Your human children have become my suppliers of energy. And if you are looking for someone responsible for that, then look in a mirror. You forced me to take my energy from human beings—with all the consequences this has for your children. None of it would have been necessary if you had only been a little more tolerant. If you had been as you yourself proclaim.

God: As I said once already at the beginning: “I know your intelligence; after all, you received it from Me.” Anyone listening to you could easily come to the thought that I, who am love, treated you unjustly. Yet it is merely My law that came into effect, a law that protects all My children, ultimately you as well.

Lucifer: But only if one fulfills your will. Whoever wants to live according to his own ideas, you restrict. I, however, want to and will shape my life according to my own ideas, even if it takes place “only” in the spiritual realm. But here, in the subtle realm, I can accomplish much more than if I were incarnated. Here my followers and I appear invisibly, and our success is much greater than it would be if we went to earth. For that I have infinitely many faithful ones who represent me and my laws on earth and also live by them, especially in this time.

God: The law of sowing and reaping applies to you as well. It applies until all My children are again with Me in heaven. Then it will no longer be necessary. Then there will also be no more spheres outside heaven, because everything will have found its way back into unity. You too, My child.

Lucifer: But until that happens, I may and will live my freedom.

God: And for you that consists in gagging and influencing human beings and in “working on” souls in such a way that they cannot develop according to My commandments and become free.

Lucifer: Because of your intervention, I have no other choice. Seen that way, the responsibility therefore lies with you. I work on human beings in a way they do not know and against which they can therefore do nothing or hardly anything. They know, it is true, that somewhere and somehow there is a “devil,” but I am responsible for their completely inadequate and partly false idea of him. And I am not a little proud of that. (Pounds his chest.) I got human beings to live for their ego and completely forget their neighbor and the love you commanded. It was not all that difficult, because as a substitute I offered them a thousand other glittering distractions and goals. My undertaking almost succeeded, but then you intervened by coming to earth Yourself as Jesus Christ in order to live out the teaching of love of neighbor that you praised so highly. Your life was to be an example and proof that—under even the most unhappy circumstances—selfless love can be lived.

God: After due preparation, I came to human beings. It was a unique act with consequences whose scope was not recognized by human beings, not even by My disciples and apostles.

Lucifer: I was frightened, I have to admit. Was what I had and what I intended now in danger? I found, or so it seemed to me at the time, the solution: I influenced those of my faithful ones who were incarnated around the same time as Jesus and induced them to kill the man Jesus. And in a very cruel way. For a short time I felt that I had now won and could live without fear. Unfortunately, I was mistaken. (Shrugs his shoulders regretfully.)

God: With Me there is no death; and even though the end of My human life on the cross was terrible, it was nevertheless not connected with the victory of darkness. For with My “death” an additional spark of energy flowed into every soul and every human being—near the heart—which was and remains the guarantee that the power of darkness would no longer have the say in the long run but, on the contrary, had been defeated. Love had won.

Lucifer: Whether I wanted to or not, I had to admit with a heavy heart that I had suffered a defeat. But to me that did not mean that I would now give up. Even if I had not won—and, as it seemed, would now no longer be able to win according to my ideas—I still had the power to destroy. And so in the time that followed, especially in the centuries that followed, I did everything I could to discredit the new teaching, persecute its followers, and, if possible, kill them. A very important step in this, if not the most important, was to change the teaching of the so-called “early Christians,” that is, to falsify it, which over the next centuries I succeeded in doing through the threat and actual use of persecution, torture, and death. Eventually Christians could draw only on what was available to them as an altered version of Jesus’ original teaching. And that was only a skeleton of Jesus’ teaching; to a large extent it had become a false teaching. At the very least, it had been deprived of important elements and was scarcely still capable of leading people inward, where, if they truly sought in earnest and lived according to the commandments, they would have had to find God. Unfortunately, I have to admit that. But they no longer knew of this possibility. That has remained so to this day. That was and is my “small victory,” by which I prevented, and still prevent, human beings from finding God within themselves. They believe superficially in the words of a book they call the Bible, which no longer contains what was once said and taught. In that respect I had won, even if not finally.

God: And now, My child? What do you believe: how will your rebellion end? You have reached the lowest point of your existence. Is that still a life? If you still remember, compare it with the time when you were still at My side. My life-force flowed to you in full measure. And today? The inflow of My power, without which no creature can live, has been reduced to a minimum. You—all of you who carried out the rebellion—still exist, it is true. But how?

Lucifer: Because you were and are unyielding and answered our desire for freedom by cutting us off from your energy little by little. But for myself and my own I found a solution for obtaining the life-energy we need; a solution that is certainly not in keeping with your wishes. But you forced me to it. You know the solution; I would not need to tell it to you. But I will anyway because I am proud of having sabotaged your course of action—at least to a large extent: I found another source of energy that is practically infinite if one taps it in the right way. Ever since then, my source of energy has been the human being! The best thing about it is that the human being does not know that he gives a large part of his energy to me—if I go about it correctly. And believe me: over the long, long time I have developed methods and procedures that are foolproof and that almost no one sees through. I lead your human children by the nose and live quite well on their energy, which they give me without noticing it and without wanting to. And in doing so I live my freedom! That was and is my answer to your having excluded me and my followers.

God: You see only a short stretch of the events whose originator you are, not I. But you know that yourself. Yet you have to see it this way before yourself because you could not live with the truth—not yet live with it. I, however, know how everything will end. I know because nothing that takes place in My creation happens outside Me; for I am the Alpha and the Omega.

Lucifer: Do you want to know (in his eagerness he forgets whom he is speaking with: God, who knows everything) how I influence, seduce, and finally rule human beings? Actually it is quite simple, and you helped me with it. Your law of love for God and neighbor made my work much easier. For this instruction was and is too much for human beings. It was not without reason that, especially in the early period of this new worldview or spiritual movement, many of your helpers from the heavens incarnated in order to help the followers of the new ideas. But my own and I were not idle either. Many of our fellow fighters also went into incarnation at that time. And I admit it: we used force and coercion wherever there was no other way. But we were successful, and in the end that was and is what matters!

God: You see and think too narrowly, My child. You do not consider the end; rather, you push it far, far into the future, far, far away from yourself. But however far you push it away from yourself, or even remove it from your sight, the end will come for you too. But it will not be an end in the sense of “now everything is over”; rather, your end will be with Me, whether you believe it or not. For I do not lose what I once brought into life.

Lucifer (unimpressed by the words of the heavenly Father): After more and more people nevertheless joined the new teaching in the first centuries, and persecution and hardship unfortunately could not prevent it either, we pulled off our coup. After the necessary preparatory work, in 553 at the Council of Constantinople we succeeded in having the teaching that human souls had had a prior existence declared heresy. **) With that we had won. Much no longer made sense, it is true, but we knew what to do about that too, because with the right means one can “sell” human beings almost anything. And we succeeded.

God: You were and are so entangled in your thinking and actions that it was and is no longer possible for you even to begin to allow other considerations.

Lucifer: But we were and are successful! That is what matters. Just look at what your personal intervention 2,000 years ago accomplished. What remains of the teaching that came into the world through Jesus? Almost nothing. And it was not only a matter of “mutilating” the teaching, but of something equally important then and now: influencing human beings, guiding and seducing them without their noticing it. And in that we truly succeeded. We were able to portray our existence in such a distorted and shadowy way that no one, or hardly anyone, still believes that we—that the devil—really exist. Nothing better could have happened to us: people do not believe in us, and we can work quietly in the background and yet right next to the human being himself.

God: (remains silent).

Lucifer (is so carried away that he can hardly stop and, out of sheer pride in his achievement, once again forgets whom he is speaking with): Human beings have been kept stupid where spiritual matters are concerned. That too is our achievement. For example, they do not know how we approach them so that we can then guide them step by step—without their noticing it—and induce them to considerations and actions that finally lead exactly in the direction in which we want them to go. What helps us here is that the overwhelming majority of human beings do not know themselves. Because of this we have—unfortunately, I have to, though reluctantly, admit also the spirit beings from the heavens—the great advantage of being able to attack them at points where they have no idea that these are weak points. Honest self-knowledge among human beings? Not a chance! Just imagine: we see and know where and how we can get at a human being, while the human being does not know this point of entry. He would even call a successful attack at these points a figment of the imagination. Do you sense what an invaluable advantage this is for us? The enemy attacks the castle, and the lord of the castle says: “I have no weak points.” Haha! Wonderful. Nothing better could happen to us. And that is how it is with most human beings, because they are not willing—they have not been taught it either—to look at themselves. That, by the way, is also the result of our work.

God: (is still silent)

Lucifer: There is not much more for me to say about it. Perhaps this: from our point of view, this principle works flawlessly. Ever since we succeeded in changing the words of your leader, everything has been much easier. At least at the beginning, and later in the Middle Ages, we were helped by people’s fear of being persecuted and killed by us. That no longer works today, so we prepared something new and then finally—as always, step by step—put it into effect. We presented other goals as interesting and important: success, pleasure, money, satisfaction of the ego, and much more. That leaves most people no time for questions about the meaning of life, about Where from? and Where to?; especially since there are only a very few who try to proclaim the truth. But they are drowned out, and of course we try to make life difficult especially for them. Unfortunately, we succeed only to a limited degree, because the support they have from the heavens is enormous. Unfortunately, we have little chance there. Unfortunately! But now and then we do manage to accomplish something even with them—if they do not look at their weak points and ask for help—but it is not easy. There is too much light around them for us to be successful there in the long run. But—and this is our consolation—there are still countless others who know nothing of this protection and do not ask for it either. They are and remain our suppliers of energy. And I am not afraid that our supply will run out—at least not in the foreseeable future; perhaps (?) sometime in eons.

God: You, My child, were originally of the highest intelligence. But on your way into the depths you lost more and more of it. Otherwise you would recognize the errors in your thinking. You know that I am absolute love without limitation. This knowledge is still present within you, even though you yourself have pushed it into the farthest corner of your consciousness. This love of Mine applies to everyone and everything, no matter how anyone behaves toward Me. It therefore applies to you and your followers as well. What does that mean for you, for all of you? Because I do not lose what I once created, you too, together with your own, will return to Me! That is law! And because I am the Source and origin of everything and possess the power that no one can touch, I will bring back to Me everything that has fallen. For I know neither retaliation nor revenge nor punishment. This is anchored within Me for all eternity, which means: no one will be able to leave Me forever! Not even you, who were and still are the cause of the creation that—for the time being—is divided. Feel within yourself; feel deeply within yourself. With My help, if you ask for it, you will succeed. Then you will recognize My eternal truth: that I love you; you, and without any exception all My children! Let what this means for you sink deeply into you. And even if at present you are still unable to recognize the spark of truth in My words, I have nevertheless laid the seed that, when inwardly you have come far enough, will let you recognize the truth. Then overcome yourself and come to Me. Into My arms. I am waiting for you.

*) Even though, strictly speaking, that is not entirely correct. The name Lucifer means “light-bearer” or “light-bringer.” Sadhana gave herself that name after she had brought about the Fall.

**) This teaching, known as apokatastasis, was rejected for the first time in 543, when the opponents of Origen obtained from Emperor Justinian I (whose wife Theodora was the driving force behind everything) an edict listing in ten points non-orthodox teachings of Origen, which the Council of Constantinople in 553 then condemned and on that basis declared Origen a heretic. All the bishops of the empire, including Pope Vigilius at that time, assented to this condemnation. It reads:

“Whoever says or maintains that human souls had a prior existence, that is, that they had previously been spirits and powers, but that they had grown weary of the divine vision, turned to evil, therefore grown cold in the love of God, thus received the name ‘souls,’ and as punishment for this were confined in bodies, let him be excluded.”

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